the end of evangelion結局的八卦，Yahoo名人娛樂都在討論

宮崎駿的《魔法公主》與庵野秀明的《新世紀福音戰士劇場版：THE END OF EVANGELION》，兩部註定在日本動畫史上留名的電影，在一九九七年的夏天，上映時間只相差一週。
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《新世紀福音戰士》如驚雷般震撼當時的動畫產業（二十年後仍有餘波），包裹在機器人打鬥底下的意識流哲學，透過少年主角，去探究人與人之間的「關係」及「孤獨」。二十六集電視動畫播出並引發廣大迴響後（包括最後一集因為預算不足朦朧收尾被粉絲罵翻），三十七歲的庵野秀明，推出他更正式、更具盛大規模的真正結局──一個在海報直接寫上「大家都去死吧」的劇場版結局。
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早《新世紀福音戰士劇場版》一週上映的《魔法公主》，根據鈴木敏夫的《天才的思考》所述，是鈴木敏夫建議宮崎駿，希望他趁「坐五望六」年紀還有體力時，來認真做一部需要體力的正統動作片，再加上鈴木覺得當時工作室經營步入軌道，已經透過實習制度培養出不少年輕動畫師，「在此時來做一部能展露年輕人作畫實力的作品吧」。
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吉卜力工作室最天時地利人和的宮崎駿作品《魔法公主》，成為吉卜力歷史上許多「第一次」：首次使用新技術電腦上色（其實是因為人工作業時程來不及趕工），首次與迪士尼合作發行（意外拓展宮崎駿在海外的名號），並打破眾多紀錄──預算是之前宮崎駿作品的兩倍、票房則是之前宮崎駿作品的三倍。
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在一九九七年的夏天，《魔法公主》那句短而有力、鼎鼎有名的電影文案「生きろ」（活下去），恰好與庵野秀明的「大家都去死吧」，在只相差一週上映的情況下，有了非常明顯的對比──有趣的是，兩部動畫的票房成績在當年日本電影票房榜上有名。
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從商業層面來看，同樣擁有複雜哲學思考的兩部動畫，皆大獲成功。
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宮崎駿與庵野秀明，這對難以用「師徒」（《風之谷》巨神兵是當時在唸藝大的庵野傑作）或是「對手」（其實比較接近偶像與粉絲）來劃分的動畫導演們，竟然都在差不多時期，做出難以用「善惡對立」輕易分類的動畫作品。而且，儘管宮崎駿將《魔法公主》的背景放在架空的室町時代，庵野秀明的福音戰士設定在近未來也是後末日時期的東京，可是在內容上，它們卻有相似關聯：
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毀天滅地，殺神滅佛。
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（全文未完，請見留言區，或是本期 聯合文學雜誌 ：#八十歲宮崎駿的真實）
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【超渡儀式——福音戰士新劇場版：終 | 盧斯達 on Patreon】

0 本文根本劇透 (但其實新版和舊版的發展和結局殊途同歸，根本沒有劇不劇透？)

1 講福音戰士劇場版《終》，一切又要回到《破》的開首，新角色真希波唱著《三百六十五步進行曲》駕駛著 EVA 殺敵，歌詞：「幸運不會主動走過來，所以要靠自己走過去，一天走一走，三天走三步，前進三步，後退兩步……」，四部新劇場版裡面的碇真嗣也是前進三步，後退兩步。《序》和《破》交代男主角如何跌跌撞撞，由一個逃避困難的少年，變成一個會 (為綾波零) 冒險的青少年。

2 重溫《破》，真是拍得很熱血，你以為這裡已經處理了碇真嗣的成長，他衝破了 TV 版與綾波零矇矓不清的情愫，不再抑鬱，像普通人一樣談起校園和共居戀愛。但，後繼的《Q》又再一次打散這個結構，進行 rebuild 裡面的 rebuild。導演告訴我們，碇真嗣在《破》裡面的表現雖然是成長的結果，但「後生仔始終係衝動」，他只有十幾歲，他的成熟並不是真正的成熟，而且搞出更大問題，他又再帶來世界末日。碇真嗣從一個小高潮墮入更低潮，一切似乎又回到原點，碇真嗣還是那個廢柴。

3 但《終》告訴你，所有經歷的東西都不會消逝，它的影響力會在關鍵時再次浮現。《終》用了不少篇幅描述碇真嗣在正常村落生活，村民代表現實世界，跟他們一起生活，就是活於百姓之間練習「現實感」，將他從幻想之中拯救出來。《Q》其實還是透過批判碇真嗣來批判 EVA / 動漫迷。當碇真嗣沉睡了十四年之後，他仍是少年，其他人卻長大了，而他在一個世界末日的場景下，仍然只關心自己究竟有冇救到條女。

4 而《終》也等於揭穿了，我們認識的綾波零在《破》最後那場熱血的戰鬥中，應已壯烈犧牲。而碇真嗣14年後一覺醒來，無法接受現實，他大喊：「綾波零﹗」也倒映出沉迷綾波零的動畫迷，他們被真實世界割傷之後，逃到了幻想空間像真嗣一樣尋求零的撫慰。

5 所以導演在《Q》和《終》兩次殘酷地提醒觀眾：綾波零只是個玩偶，不是真實的。在上一集，我們發現綾波零不是前兩集的綾波零，在《終》佢直情在觀眾面前爆開，差不多像 《3D肉蒲團》那樣。他要不斷折磨你，連他描述綾波零複制品的篇幅，讓觀眾開始共情她，都是精心計算的惡意，之後佢一樣係爆炸。總之我感覺到導演對綾波零抱著一種強烈敵意和清算態度。「假架啲女﹗」佢咁講。

6 導演要不斷清算他創造的最有影響力女主角，在一切講完之後，似乎都可以理解。EVA 新劇場版四集下來，事實上是反 EVA 的。據說是因為 EVA 的巨大成功，使導演感到自己處於這部作品的巨大陰影之下，人生反而受到限制。EVA 為庵野秀明帶來了精神病，而那精神病的象徵物無疑就是綾波零，而將 「EVA 引起的精神病」繪畫出來，就是舊版本的意識流世界，以及新版本的反宇宙空間。其實都是一件事。新版本解釋得更赤裸，直指那是幻想和現實構成的世界，這是在指 EVA、動漫甚至流行文化。

7 「覺悟」之後的真嗣反過來渡化沉浸在幻想的父親。真嗣在《Q》、舊版後段的精神狀態無疑是陷入妄想，而父親是最後的奸角，因為他代表了繼續沉迷 EVA、那些不願放開 EVA 的愛好者，真嗣的啟蒙結果是他決定清除 EVA，讓世界變成一個沒有 EVA 的世界，讓從無而來的有，最終復歸於無。

8 你也可以說，《終》是一部充滿神道氣息的電影。真嗣最後渡化了墮入顛倒夢想的父親，渡化了自己，也渡化了其他主要精神缺憾角色。法師是庵野秀明，要超渡的「惡靈」是 EVA 這套作品。一班村民年年月月拜一塊石，就會變成靈石，你得拜下去。好像養鬼仔，當你不養了，要處理好手續。《終》希望成為那個代表「跟 EVA 分手」的手續。

9 主旨仍然是誨人不倦：不要沉迷動漫，要面對真實世界。在《The End of Evangelion》(舊劇場版) ，導演的教誨方式相當冷酷和陰鬱，最後明日香對真嗣說出「真嘔心」無疑是在批判觀眾 / EVA 迷。舊劇場版的教育方法是北野武式的，那是一句怒火爆棚的「屌你老味班死毒撚係度逃避現實」，但到了二十幾年之後的《終》，導演像一個和風細雨的慈父。他鼓勵你接受明日香和綾波零是假的，鼓勵你走到真實世界溝女，而他最後也安排了真希波給真嗣，說明真實世界也有其美好的。比起鬧人，更加容易說服人，所以歲月確實給了導演很多智慧。

10 真希波這個角色相當有趣。她自然沒有明顯心理問題，也享受駕駛 EVA，她的存在本身就很「反 EVA」。而幾集裡面各種關於真希波的細節，你會發現她在每次行動都可以完成戰略任務、全身而退，決策上絕不感情用事，但又可以理解別人的感情。反而全劇表面上最老謀深算的人，其實心理最不健全。

11 真希波以人格發展完成度極高的設定存在於故事中。在《破》裡面，高層談到大人之間的政治問題牽扯到青少年 (駕駛 EVA 自相殘殺)，自己感到不人道，鏡頭一轉真希波在另一邊也覺得自己的事情牽扯到大人，亦覺歉意。很多類似的細節顯示，真希波超然於大人的陰謀，她無力改變世界現狀，但她會積極利用形勢來實現私人議程。戲中的陰謀組織和父親大人，都是剝削青少年，利用他們人格尚未發展完成的弱點來作惡，你自然也可以這樣看「動漫產業」本身。

12 真希波就不吃這一套，而真嗣因為人格未發展好，所以一次一次被父親算計。也因為父親帶來的巨大痛苦，他十幾歲就成了佛，最後還渡化了父親，literally 拯救了世界。

13 為甚麼不是明日香和綾波零。綾波零是要「殺死」的，她會留在「幻想界」，是少年對於一個完美、順服、娃娃般少女的幻想，它必須死亡來證明男孩成長為男人。明日香對於男人來說，是會在腦裡暗放一間房存放其記憶的那種對象。真嗣和明日香也曾很乾柴烈火，也有過很多真實動人的時刻，但這一切都是年輕的事，what happens in EVA stays in EVA 的意思。

14 真嗣和明日香的關係一向很 toxic，但這種關係格外迷人。明日香表面堅強，但同樣長期陷入妄想，例如強烈的不安全感，所以要時時刻刻用軍事功榮補償受創的尊嚴，她同樣因這些心理缺憾而在劇中陷入絕境。所以這兩個充滿弱點的人在一起，就會是互相傳染精神病，我們經歷過的 toxic relationship 很多都是「真嗣—明日香」模式。

15 明日香氣了真嗣 14 年，二人上一次是分別處於兩台瘋狂互咬的 EVA ，「我沒有幫妳，也沒有殺妳」，於是明日香認可了他的進步，最後她也說了一些「我心裡有過你」的話，最後真嗣也渡化了自己，感恩地表達心裡有過她。那一段還是很動人的。

16 女性之中，真希波代表了「正常人」，「正常人」是毒海沉淪者的菩薩。真希波在戲中也是菩薩一樣的救苦救難支援型角色。她唱的「前進三步，後退兩步」也預報了真嗣或每一個人如何在撞損中成長。

17 真嗣是如何成長的：如果視真嗣為佛陀故事中的佛陀，他本來是被寵壞的王子，但發現王宮外面充滿生死病死，而這也有一日要臨到自己，他不明白可以如何解脫。所以在真實世界 / 貧苦極地中獲得啟蒙，仍然很有普世性。真嗣是在幸存者村落中上山下鄉，重新學習生活。在前集和《終》都有角色提醒真嗣：這世界痛苦的不只有你。這是三番四次速遞上門的認知糾正。他總是要說，你們認為現實是痛苦的，所以逃到 EVA 這間教堂尋求慰藉，但你沒有想過現實世界可能並沒那麼糟。總之導演已到了苦口婆心的地步：要去生活，要去愛，要去受傷，不要拒絕現實，要活在現實之中。「EVA 精神病」的「補完」就是遠離顛倒夢想，「病」好。

18 雖然很多事情都滿足了，但看完新版，會覺得舊版在分鏡剪接機體設計等方面更加精美。像舊版明日香對戰量產機那一段，後來的動作場面就很少有那種效果，在 14 年過去之後很多動作場面是戰艦式交火，舊劇場面是打得血肉橫飛、內臟全飛起來的港產恐怖動作片。

19 原版的調性好像是越掙扎越沮喪，新版的發展是越掙扎越積極，最後到達彼岸。導演屌完你之後，二十多年後還是會送上真心祝福，對中間種種已經消化，超渡了 EVA ，也超渡了自己。

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新書：https://tinyurl.com/eyd9258v

"橫尾先生你傾向於在你的遊戲中有個悲傷的結局（除了《尼爾 自動人形》），這是為什麼呢？

橫尾：我想啊，玩家在遊戲中的旅程中殺了那麼多的敵人，但自己卻迎來了一個Happy Ending，這很奇怪，所以我之前遊戲的主角都有著不幸的結局，我覺得對他們來說有個Happy Ending是不對的。

不過對《尼爾 自動人形》來說，對2B和9S來說，從被給予生命，他們殺了很多人，但也被自己殺了很多，很多次，有著無數次的輪迴。我認為這已經把他們殺死敵人的罪給贖了，幸福結局對他們兩個來說更合適一些。"

【尼爾：自動人形】是好遊戲，2B很可愛～

Talking To Yoko Taro, PlatinumGames' Takahisa Taura, And Composer Keiichi Okabe About Life, Death, And Opportunity

This interview with《Nier: Automata》director Yoko Taro and PlatinumGames' designer Takahisa Taura was first conducted in March of this year. Square Enix then offered gameinformer another chance to talk with Taro again, this time with Keiichi Okabe to speak more about the game's creation, music, and design philosophies and we are taking this opportunity to combine both until-now unpublished interviews together.

At the start of the first interview, Taro Yoko, whose pen name is appropriately Yoko Taro, was surprisingly quiet. He took a gulp from a bottle of Diet Pepsi and looked me straight in the eye to say something. I myself looked to the translator, who laughed at whatever Yoko said. She began "Yoko-san wants you to write about how expensive the food and drinks are here, if you can. He says it's way too much."

[The following interview contains some spoilers for Nier: Automata, including the game's final ending.]

With Nier: Automata, you guys won a Game Developer Conference award. How do you feel about that?

Yoko: We heard it was a user's choice award where the players themselves select the winners, so I'm just really happy that the players have selected our game for winning the award.

How did PlatinumGames and Yoko-san first meet on Nier? Why did you decide on that project versus something like another Drakengard or a new IP as a whole?

Taura: I loved the previous Nier title, I was actually went to Square Enix saying "Please let us create a Nier sequel, because you haven't done anything with it for a long time." At the same time, there was coincidentally Saito-san, the producer for Nier: Automata, talking with Yoko-san that they wanted to do something together. It just so happened that it was the right time, right place and we met for the first time when we started this project.

When you started working on the Automata, did you know what it was going to be? Did you have an idea in your head of what a Nier sequel would look like after the first game?

Yoko: Not at all, I had no ideas for a sequel in mind. When I first heard that we might do a collaboration with PlatinumGames, the image I had of them is that they only create Sci-Fi action games. When I thought of that, I thought of what part of the Nier storyline might fit in with that Sci-Fi action gaming sequence, I selected the themes for Automata because I felt it just fits in with the PlatinumGames style.

PlatinumGames has a reputation for fast, often-challenging action games, but Nier: Automata is a lot easier. Was that intentional to keep it closer to the first Nier or perhaps a consequence of trying to make PlatinumGames action more mainstream?

Taura: That's actually exactly the reason why. Saito-san from Square Enix told us when the project started that, since the original Nier has a lot of female fans and a lot of non-action gamer fans, to make the game as fun and accessible as possible to people who aren't accustomed to playing difficult action games. We always thought of making the game into something that's fun to play for newcomers to the action game field, but also to the more experienced players as well.

One of the usual tropes of PlatinumGames is that, as the game goes on, it tends to escalate more and more to an explosive finale. Nier: Automata kind of messes with that formula a little bit by Ending A being a little bit more subdued and low-key and then goes up again and again until it finishes with endings D and E. Is that something you had to work with Yoko-san about, where the escalation and pacing would best fit the gameplay?

Taura: In terms of like a climax or increasing the difficulty level toward the end, it's not that different from our other titles, or at least we didn't feel like it was that different. The one major difference was that this was the first game that I've at least worked that had the leveling up element in it. So as long as you level up your character, the boss would be easier to defeat, but if you don't, then some of the enemies toward the end of the game would be very difficult. For me, the balancing between the difficulty level of stages and bosses versus the levels the player might be was the difficult part in creating this game.

One thing that we really had it easy with in this game is that Yoko-san's scenario and Okabe-san's music, once it's mixed into the battle, makes a really menial and indifferent battle sequence suddenly becomes this dramatic and grandiose battle with everything at stake, so I felt like that really helped elevate our battle sequences as well. We did have an easy time thanks to that!

With Automata, you started appearing at press conferences and as part of the marketing of the game, whereas previously you never did that. When you appear in public, you have been wearing a mask of Emil from the first Nier title. Why Emil specifically?

Yoko: Hmm. One of the answers I can give is that, and I do have a little more that I want to elaborate on, is that for one Emil in the previous title is just a strong character on its own, so it's more like an iconic image or character for Nier as a series. Another part of the answer is that Emil actually holds a great secret of the part of the Nier world and it's not all revealed with the games I've created so far. I'm not sure if I'll have an opportunity to disclose that secret, but if I do, I might one day create a game that delves more into why it's Emil and why I continue to wear Emil's mask.

I don't know if either of you can speak to this, but the trailers for Nier: Automata were a little misleading. They showed A2, who you play as late in the game, but with short hair, so she looked like 2B. Was that something you decided, to show those scenes but not make it clear who it was?

Yoko: There were trailers like that?

There was one specifically showing A2 fighting Hegel like that.

Yoko: Ahh, yeah. There's no reason! We weren't trying to hide A2 or mislead anyone, it just happened to work out that way.

Taura: We made so many trailers at some point we kind of didn't care what we showed.

Oh, wow, that's going to shock a lot of fans in the Nier community. People really believed in the theory that you were hiding A2 in plain sight the marketing.

Yoko: Haha, but it might not be the correct answer. Like Taura-san said, we made so many trailers that we can't remember them all, so I'm definitely happy to take the credit without remembering why.

Taura: Yeah, let's say we intentionally did that. For the fans. It might be true.

Yoko: But I can say, in one of the trailers is A2 fighting one of the Engels, one of the big robots. She actually has long hair in the trailer, but in the actual game, it's after she cut her, so she would have had shorter hair. That one was actually intentional, because we did not reveal before the game that A2 would cut her hair, so we actually made a scene specifically with long-haired A2 to take that trailer. So that's that shot was kind of a lie.

In the Automata DLC, the CEO of Square Enix Yosuke Matsuda, as well as PlatinumGames boss Kenichi Sato, are boss fights. Where did that idea come from and how did you get them to approve it? How did they react when you asked them?

Yoko: Haha, oh yeah.

Taura: The development team went to Square Enix and said "Please let us use him in our game!" Their reaction was initially saying "Uhm, are you sure you want to?"

We were thinking for a while of what we could do with the DLC, because we didn't have a lot of time to develop it, so we wanted to do something fun with it. When we were thinking about it, we saw that Final Fantasy XV used a character model of president Matsuda in one of their marketing assets. When Yoko-san saw that, he reached out and asked if maybe we could use that in the game at Platinum. We said that, if we get the character models, we could definitely use them for something in the game. We reached out to Square Enix and they gave us the model and we were able to use that character model for a boss fight.

If it was just that you were able to fight the CEO of Square Enix, then it would have just been the same as what Final Fantasy XV did, so we had to think of ways to spice that up even more. So we had PlatinumGames' CEO Sato-san appear in the fight as well. We also included background music that arranged their voices, we included their voices in the music, just to add a little bit more and beat out Final Fantasy XV. That BGM track is Matsuda-san and Sato-san's debut single. We didn't even get permission from them, so it's an unofficial debut single, and those are much rarer.

Speaking of crossovers, did you know that Nier fans have been trying get Katsuhiro Harada of Bandai Namco to put 2B in Tekken? Is that something you guys would want to do? [Note: This interview was conducted before 2B was announced as a Soulcalibur guest character.]

Yoko: For us, if we were asked, we would gladly say yes to anything for money. We're open to any kind of opportunities for anything, ever. Even if it's Candy Crush, if they want to use 2B, we will say yes, please go ahead and use her.

Actually, speaking of doing anything for money, you've never created a direct story sequel before, they've all been loosely tied together and many years apart. Saito-san has already said there will be another Nier game, if the characters are popular enough, would you create a direct sequel to Automata or would you change the characters and location again?

Yoko: I haven't thought about it once! Taura-san, where would you want to create a new game?

Taura: Actually, when I brought my concept document to Square Enix about a Nier sequel, I wanted to write a story about that prologue portion in the first Nier game. You know the beginning of the game, where you're kind of in Tokyo, in an area that's more modern? I kind of want to delve into that storyline a little bit more. So if I'm allowed to create a new Nier title, that's what I want to create. But that's just me speaking as a fan of the series, so I don't think that will actually happen officially.

Yoko: When I actually heard about that idea from Taura-san when we first started this project, I felt that it would be very difficult to make a modern recreation of Tokyo because it's the city that we constantly see every day. You just notice differences in the lies that we put in there, so I felt it would be very difficult to do to recreate a city that we know and see so much. But now that I know that PlatinumGames is such a good studio that they most likely will have that power and talent to be able to create that kind of video game world, I think that might be an option. Whether or not we'll do that is a different question, but it is a viable option.

One of the things you said before the release of Drakengard 3 was that you wanted to call it Drakengard 4 and just let people figure out what the theoretical Drakengard 3 was supposed to be. That's similar to what you did with Automata where the game takes place 10,000 years after Nier and people who played the first game were more confused than new players. Was that an intentional idea or something you've wanted to do for a while?

Yoko: It's not that I brought over that idea to Nier: Automata, the greatest reasoning why I did this is because I wanted players who haven't played the original title to enjoy Nier: Automata so you can enjoy the game without knowing anything about the previous game. That's the biggest reason why we took a storyline that's so far in the future that it really didn't have anything to do with the previous title.

A common through-line for Yoko-san's games is flowers: the lunar tear in the Nier series, the flower in Zero's eye in Drakengard 3, is that symbolizing anything in your games or is it just visual imagery you like?

Yoko: Well, I do like flowers in general, but yes, there is a greater meaning to it that I have with these flowers. It's the same as Emil like I talked about earlier, I just haven't revealed it anywhere. There is a meaning, which is why they keep on coming back in my games, but I haven't revealed it anywhere yet.

With the last Nier game, you had said that you built the game on the concept of people being okay with murdering people who are different. With Nier: Automata, the games actually became more fun to play and control and touch, do you think there's a danger in giving people that sense of ease in killing enemies in the narrative?

Yoko: In the previous title, I actually feel like I overdid that a bit. I did want to portray that enemies have a reason to live and a reason to fight on their own as well, but I feel like I forced that idea that I had in my mind a little bit too much on the players. So for Nier: Automata, I did not want to focus on it, I didn't want to impose my feelings and thoughts. I actually feel that it's fine if some people feel it's fun to kill in our games. If that's all that they feel from the game, then it's fine, because its their freedom to feel what they want from the game. To answer your question, I think that it's fine to have that happen.

Taura: I actually have the same answer, too. I feel like if it's fun to fight, that's great as a game designer. But if you feel bad to kill these cute little robots, that's fine with me as well. I feel like different people will have different reactions to the game and they will feel differently when they play the game, so I'm actually happy to create a game that creates those kind of differences within the players as well.

Yoko: That's a really good question for us, because if players felt that it was way too fun to kill these enemies that it started making them feel guilty, that's something we didn't really aim to do. Just as we mentioned earlier, I'm really happy that players were able to take it on their own and experience it on their own, then we didn't just provide something for people to take it as-is on face value. I feel like it's great that the players are now taking the game and experiencing it on their own and trying to figure things out on their own.

There was a time after 2B was revealed that people were asking you about her design on Twitter and you answered that you just like sexy ladies. That quote has become pretty famous and attached to you and a lot of people are reading into it. Is that a thing you still believe, would you ever take the quote back, or would you have ever changed 2B's design?

Yoko: [laughs] Don't straight men like cute girls? Isn't that common knowledge? I didn't realize that was a quote.

A lot of people use you as an example as a developer that just says what is on their mind.

Yoko: Before we released the game, on Twitter, because so many people were sending me 2B fan art, I said that "Send me a zip file of all your erotic fan art!" When I tweeted that out, my number of Twitter followers jump from 20,000 to 60,000 just with that one Tweet. I actually think it's because I did something that's more of a taboo in the western world where I talked about sexuality or gender that openly on Twitter, but that's actually...so, I do know that what I said did not just creative positive buzz and there's some negative buzz around it as well, but I feel like it kind of has to do with the Japanese culture where we're not too strict about gender and sexuality and being more open about talking about those things.

I think it's the same thing as reading manga as an adult, it's a little bit different when you think about it because in Japan that's more common, it's not considered something weird or something outlandish. With that kind of feedback that I get from fans, I just feel like it's the difference in culture between Japan and the rest of the world.

That is something you tend to tackle fairly often. Drakengard 3 was partly about sex and sexuality treated casually within the game's universe, is that something you feel doesn't translate across all regions?

Yoko: I actually don't think [translating across regions] has a lot to do with sexuality. I don't think it would have sold more copies of Drakengard 3 if I took away aspects of sexuality or added more in there. I feel that Nier: Automata sold well because we worked with PlatinumGames, so I don't think that has anything to do with a sexual nature.

For the original Nier, there was a lot of information on the periphery of the game like books with background information and short stories that answer questions raised in the game. Automata even had a stage play predating the game. Do you think it's harder for western fans to grasp the whole stories of these games when there's Japanese-exclusive media about it expanding the lore?

Yoko: Of course we can't localize everything because we have limitations in budget, so it's really difficult to do all of that, but I actually think there really isn't a need to know everything, either. The meaning I have behind Emil's mask or the flowers you asked about, like I said it's not revealed in the game at all or anywhere else yet, but no one really needs to know that to enjoy the game or enjoy the world or enjoy the game. More than gaining knowledge, I want players to cherish the experience they have when playing the game. It's more about that instead of the knowledge they could have for every question. Of course the theatrical stage play was more of like a YoRHa spinoff, but you don't need to know that to enjoy the game. Every piece, like the books and the stage play, is made in a way so that you can enjoy it by yourself, so you don't need that extra knowledge to enjoy it.

It may add a little bit depth to the knowledge that you have, but you don't necessarily need to have it. I do understand the otaku mentality that you want to know everything, you want to have everything answered, you want to collect everything, but I don't see the value in knowing everything. For example, just in real life, you might not know everything about the politics that surrounds the world or even in your own country, and there's really no point in knowing everything that happens in the world. Maybe a lot things, but not everything, right? What's more important is how you interact with people around you, immediately around you, and I think that's the same with video games. You don't really need to know everything that happens in the world to enjoy it.

Of course I do respect the freedom that the players feel as well, so if you do get mad that we can't localize everything in America, or America never gets everything, that's also something to be respected and I do understand the frustrations surrounding that as well.

When Nier: Automata released, it did so in a three-month timeframe that several other big Japanese games came out in the U.S., like The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Yakuza 0. A lot of people started heralding those games as a return of Japanese development in the west. What do you think about going from fairly niche games to what some people consider the tip of the spear of modern Japanese development?

Yoko: First and foremost, just to speak about having so many good titles in that timeframe, my thought was "Are you people trying to kill me with this?!" In Japan, Horizon came out first, then it was Nier, then Zelda, and I think in the west, it was Horizon, Zelda, then Nier in North America. So we're literally sandwiched between those two with a two-week window in between each and they were all very similar to us in the futuristic setting. Especially for Zelda, it was one of the titles we copied in the first place, so I really felt like they were trying to kill us at the time.

Personally, not even thinking about Nier: Automata during that time frame, I was running around excited about all the fun-looking games coming as a gamer myself.

Hideki Kamiya [PlatinumGames] has once said that Nier: Automata saved Platinum. Is that something you agree with and how has the relationship been between PlatinumGames and Square Enix?

Yoko: Speaking from my perspective, of course Taura-san will likely know more about it internally at PlatinumGames...Kamiya-san, he's very laid back on Twitter, but when you actually really talk to him, he's a very serious person and very sincere. I guess Nier: Automata did generate sales for them, because I received a direct letter of gratitude from him saying "Thank you very much for creating a great game." I don't even know if we saved them or not in that sense, but just receiving that kind of message from was just very heartwarming and I was just really happy that I was able to provide such a game for them.

Taura: You could make the headline of your article "Yoko Taro Saved PlatinumGames" and that's definitely true.

Yoko: It's a very true headline.

Why do both of you think that Nier: Automata was more successful than Yoko-san's previous games or most other PlatinumGames titles?

Taura: Mainly because PlatinumGames' sensibilities were much better than Yoko Taro's.

Yoko: I actually think it's the Square Enix brand, the name Square Enix gives a more reliable feeling to an otaku type of title. PlatinumGames' strong name being known for making really good action games and I think the combination of the two really helped. This time with Nier: Automata, we sold about 2.5 million copies and the previous title we sold around 500,000. For the last game, we weren't really in the red, but it wasn't exactly a success either. We have these passionate fans that really supported the time from announcement and the series as a whole. Of course for Automata, too, we had a very passionate fan base including the media and including yourself that gave impressions and articles that helped make the game into a success, so I'm just really grateful for the fans and media alike that really supported the title and were passionate about it.

[The remainder of this interview took place a few weeks later with Taro Yoko and Nier: Automata composer Keiichi Okabe. Okabe is also known for his work on both Nier titles, Drakengard 3, Tekken, and contributing some tracks to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Before we started recording, Yoko said it will be okay if I asked Okabe most of the questions and I remarked that I wouldn’t want to make him jealous. He paused for a moment and then said it doesn’t matter because he would get paid either way.]

You two have been working together for a long time, I was curious how much the music composition is tied in with the writing. One of the city themes in Nier: Automata uses similar composition to a track in Nier. Does that come from the writing or the musical identity of the series?

Okabe: Since Yoko-san is I feel the type of person that doesn't want to do the same thing over and over again, even if he did receive praise for what he did previously, I kept that in mind while I was composing music for Nier: Automata. I also wanted to have some kind of connection that you would feel as a player between the previous title and this one, so I used similar tones from previous titles or from the previous game. It might not be exactly the same, but I used some similar types of music lines from the previous title so that you might feel that kind of connection.

But we do have tracks that are arrangements of previous tracks from older titles, but that was mostly for fan service.

I kind of wanted to drill down a little bit this time and get to the core of your philosophy of why and how you make games. If you had to pick a reason to hold up and say "This is why I make video games," what would that be?

Yoko: I feel that video games, amongst all the different entertainment mediums, have the most freedom in what you can do as a creator. For example, in a film, if you are able to control movement, then that's no longer a film in my eyes. In video games, you could have film-like cutscenes and videos, you could have them going on forever as much as you would like as a creator. That kind of freedom to do that is what I really wanted to do and I feel like video games are what provide me that option, even if I never do it.

Is there any kind of message you use games for that you want to convey to your audience or anything you want them to hear from you? Or do you prefer to let them take whatever interpretation they get from your games?

Yoko: It's the latter. I would want our players to freely interpret what I've created just on their own, to grasp something for their own. I feel that's one of the interesting aspects of video games is that you are able to freely interpret what's being shown to you. I also feel like the players make the game whole by playing it. The action of playing the game I feel has meaning in itself and because of that I want the players to find something from the game, feel something from the game, for themselves.

Nier: Automata won a number of awards, Okabe-san you won best music at The Game Awards, Automata won the audience award at GDC. Is there any pressure to appeal a more mainstream audience with your next game?

Okabe: For a popular title that will be played by many, it doesn't really matter what kind of genre you put out musically. I will still be interested to compose music for those if possible. I would have to take a different approaches to those kind of mainline titles, whereas for Nier, I felt that the music can be more geared toward a core audience where only those who would understand the music would play it. But at the same time, once you understand, I want you to be deeply affected by it. That's what I aim for with Nier. If I am to work on a way more mainstream title next time, I will have to change that mindset I have as a composer, but that would be something I'd like to challenge myself more. To answer your question, yes, I'd like to try that, but I'd also do whatever kind of jobs I'm assigned to.

Yoko: For me, my games I actually think are really niche. How Nier: Automata was so successful was actually just a coincidence. To make a successful game is something that I can't really aim to do, so I think that I'll probably return to my small and dark corner, my niche corner, with my successive titles.

Who would you both consider your inspirations for writing and composing?

Okabe: For me, it's obviously more of a composer than a writer, but I don't really focus on one person. I tend to just try to get music here and there and have a wide net. I am greatly affected by people who I've listened to in my youth, like Japanese composer Ryuchi Sakamoto, Ennio Morricone who creates film music, and also pop music like Michael Jackson and Madonna. I am affected by those as well.

Yoko: I have received inspiration from a lot of things, but I think personally expressions in film or any like visual production is something I'm deeply affected by. For example, Neon Genesis Evangelion by Hideaki Anno, that was really a strong influence on me. Also, the drama series 24, the way that they incorporate speedy and complicated constructions of storylines was something that was very new at the time. Just throughout the timeline of visual production, I think there's a sudden burst of evolution, and I think that "that" moment in a title that does that just greatly affects me and becomes an inspiration for me. But I feel that can be said for the rest of the world.

Lately, anything that Christopher Nolan creates I think is very intriguing where he tries to include deep knowledge and thoughtfulness into what he creates. I'm very interested in this new wave of evolution.

Last year, with the release of Animal Crossing on mobile, you talked on social media about how it was your favorite game of the year because you created a narrative where the characters were all unwillingly imprisoned in the camp. Do you often create your own narratives for games?

Yoko: I do that for some games and I don't for others. Off and on, I guess. It's a lot easier to create my own storyline per se for a more primitive game. For example, in Zelda: Wind Waker, you start off with a grandma and your sister living on an island and it's really happy and joyful and there's really no reason for Link to get out of there and fight Ganondorf because you're already living happily. You don't need to get out of that happiness. As a gamer, I felt the kind of sadness to have to leave that happy island life.

In Dragon Quest [V], you have to choose who you want to wed, and I felt that I couldn't really get into liking either of the characters. I also couldn't find the point of having to decide who I want to marry, so I just at that instant I turned off the game and said "My journey ends here!" My mind narrated "The three of them went on the journey and lived happily ever after, the end." That was my ending for Dragon Quest V.

Around the release of Drakengard 3, you spoke about how it's not possible in this industry to make a six-minute game and sell it for $60, no matter how good those six minutes are. Is this something you still think?

Yoko: That analogy was given to explain that, no matter how much you try to make a game really good, there's a limit to what you can do. If you are to create a six-minute game, because you can't go through a lot of different stages, you would have to create one stage. Which means that you could really refine the quality of that one stage without having to put in a lot of money into it and a lot of manpower into it. Also, because it's only six minutes, you can't really have too many characters in it, so you could focus on one or two characters at max. By doing that, you could refine the quality of those two characters. But because you're time-limited, no matter how much you refine the quality of the world around you or the characters, if you're limited to six minutes there's just so much you could do that the game won't become good at all. That was an example for me to say that there's a limit to what you can do in video games.

Okabe-san, in the music for a lot of Yoko-san's game, you use constructed or uncommon languages, is there a specific reason for that?

Okabe: [laughs] Yeah, for one, because it is Nier: Automata, Replicant, and Gestalt, they all take place in a unique world, even though they're in the timeline of our current world, it's so much in the future that it should feel kind of foreign. That's one of the reasons why I went for language we can't understand, but another is that, in games in the past, game directors actually got mad at many occasions for including vocals into the soundtrack. They were saying that it would become too distracting from the gameplay and would distract the player. It was considered more of a taboo, so for Nier, I included vocals in there without a language you could understand more for the sound that you get from the words. It wasn't to convey any meaning of what was being said, but more for a sound impact.

Yoko-san, you tend to have very sad endings in your games, with the exception of Nier: Automata which is as happy an ending as you can get with most characters dying. Why do you tend to write toward more sad endings and do you feel like Automata's happy ending fit the game better?

Yoko: The reason why I created endings that end on a death is because, until now I was creating games where you would kill a lot of enemies, but I've always felt that it doesn't feel right when the protagonist has a happy after they've killed so many enemies during the course of their journey. That's why in Replicant and Gestalt, or my previous titles, the protagonist pretty much ended up dying because I didn't feel like it was right for them to have a happy ending. But for Nier: Automata, 2B and 9S, from the time that they were given life, they've been killing a lot of enemies, but they've also been killed by them many, many times, and regenerated many times. They've actually been killing each other, which you find out at the very end, many, many times as well. So I felt that kind of cleansed them of their sins for killing so many enemies, which made me feel that a happy ending was more fitting for those two.

Do you feel like that cycle of violence and death and the consequences of that are human nature?

Yoko: I think the reasons why we kill in video games do kind of shine light on what's kind of broken within humanity or humans in general. We want peace in the world, but we also enjoy killing others in video games, like shooting guns in video games. I think that's karma in a sense for humans, the way that video games grasp the true essence of humanity, whether or not that's what they were aiming to do.

Is there a series that you know, like Persona or Yakuza or anything like that, that either of you would want to work on?

Yoko: A series or anything?

It can be anything.

Yoko: Personally, it's not a Japanese title. I'd actually love to see how western titles are developed, because I have no insight into how they're made. There was a moment in time where I felt that it might be fun join a western development to see how things run. Of course there's the language barrier that would make it difficult for me to do that, but generally speaking I feel that western storytelling follows kind of a similar route for all the stories that western mediums create. I would feel it fascinating to find out why western games use certain flows and storyline arcs.

Okabe: I'm kind of a fanboy myself, so there is a part of me that wants to work on major titles like Dragon Quest. I feel that if I do work on those titles, the pressure of working such a known title would be just too big and because there is a part of me that really loves that series, I feel like I would try to skew my music in a way that would fit into that series instead of trying to create music that I think is good. I don't feel like I would be able to bring out the best quality in my music if I worked on those big titles, because of that pressure and because of the image I have of those titles in my mind. Currently, my want to work on those major titles and the part of me that's telling me I shouldn't do it are about equal.

Were either of you surprised by Nier: Automata's success?

Yoko: [in English] Oh yes.

Okabe: For me, I live in Tokyo and developer PlatinumGames live in Osaka, so we did have quite a distance in-between, like literal physical distance between us. From the moment that I created the music to when I was able to see it next, there was a big gap in time, so when I was able to my music in the game for the first time, the game was pretty close to finished, they were almost done with development. At that moment, I thought "Maybe this one might sell?" But at the same time, I didn't think it would become this big of a success, I always thought it might do better than the previous titles, but it was like a hunch that I didn't feel until this time in Yoko-san's titles. I did have some kind of a gut feeling that it might do well.

The last song of Automata, Weight of the World, had a chorus with the entire game's development staff at PlatinumGames and Square Enix singing along to encourage the player. Why did you decide on that for the final song of the game?

Okabe: I didn't remember this, I actually forgot about it for a while, but Yoko-san actually came to me telling me that he wanted a chorus at the end of the game pretty early on in the development process. I apparently made disgruntled face at him and did not remember why I even made that face or even that I made that face. After a while, I actually remember why I had such a reaction with the disgruntled face, because there's a couple of different types of choirs, but Yoko-san likes the more classical choir, so when he requested that he wanted a choir, I thought he wanted that classical type of choir at the last part of the game. At that moment, I thought "Well, that doesn't really fit in with the game plan, I don't really want to do that," which is why I had that expression on my face. After we talked about it, Yoko-san mentioned that wasn't really what he was going for, he said that because that last scene is all about all these different people helping you, he wanted everyone to sing, he wanted it to feel like everyone is singing there with you as you play.

When I thought about doing that, and I actually agreed that might be a good idea, because in Nier: Automata all the choir vocals that you hear in the game, it's actually recorded by a small group of singers, I just overlapped their voice so it sounds like a big choir. Because that last part of the game is more about you playing amongst a lot of people, I felt that taking that approach again of overlapping voices again would not really work. So I reached out to the dev teams because they were working on that part and I thought it would be a good idea to have them put themselves in the game as well. I also thought that they don't need to have a good voice, it's just to give that feeling that you're playing with all these developers.

Development teams from Square Enix, PlatinumGames, and also some composers from my company who didn't work on Nier: Automata are singing in it as well. There's also children of PlatinumGames developers and their family actually singing in it as well. That was the reasoning behind why we decided to do that at the end.

Has there ever been, in all your games you've made, an idea you had that you had to be talked out of?

Yoko: For the first Drakengard, I had an idea of [Japanese pop-star] Ayumi Hamasaki, like her character model, wearing all-silver spandex, like a giant version of her descending from the sky and you would fight against her by music. Everyone else on the staff shut it down. It does still leave that kind of music game essence kind of in there, but the part Ayumi Hamasaki comes out in silver spandex has been taken out.

Isn't that kind of similar to Drakengard 3's actual ending?

Yoko: Similar, but I actually wanted to go for something funny, or shockingly stupid. But no one would let me.

Source：
https://www.gameinformer.com/…/talking-to-yoko-taro-platinu…